Sunday, August 25, 1996
A Democrat and a Republican debate illegal immigrationBy Geoff Martin
Summer Bruin Senior Staff
We recently invited Michael Schneider, president of the Bruin Democrats, and Jason Steele, chairman of the Bruin Republicans, to take part in a dialogue on immigration, in preparation for the 1996 national presidential election. This dialogue, on a series of other topics, will continue next Fall Quarter '96 as the election draws closer.
Michael Schneider (MS): I don't think either of us is going to sit here and say that we are for illegal immigration.
The Republican Party, with their support of Proposition 187, represents a very retroactive stance, and what needs to be taken in this is a pro-active stance. It needs to be stopped at the border. Once people are in here, we cannot possibly deny them the means of survival.
The U.S. Constitution states that any person born in this country is a citizen. People don't come to this country to leech off of America. They come here to make a better life for themselves. I do [think] that we should try to make everybody's life here as good as possible.
Denying a child education, whether his parents are legal or illegal immigrants, is absolutely wrong. The parents, not the child, crossed the border. The child had no choice in the matter. If we deny that child education, he will grow up in poverty, a lower-class citizen, holding menial jobs. To give that child an education is to give that child a chance to become a productive member of American society.
Jason Steele (JS): First of all, education is not a basic human right. Education is a right for American citizens whose parents have come here legally and put into the system. It is true that America is a nation of immigrants, but it is not a nation of illegal immigrants.
If there is somebody to blame for those children's predicament, it is their parents who broke our laws and violated our national sovereignty. We have laws, and those laws need to be obeyed. Mike brought up the fact that we disagree about the means, but I also think that there is disagreement about how much effort to put into it. There is a large wing of the Democratic Party that advocates open borders, which would make this whole argument moot.
MS: For the record there, I do not advocate open borders, and neither do the Democrats.
JS: Okay. For the record. But for the record, I have to say that a majority of Democrats did vote for Proposition 187 along with a majority of conservatives.
[However], their view is, if you can at last get into the country, then you can have all this free stuff. We say, "No, if you break our laws, you pay the price," and if those people that break the laws are going to force their children to pay the price, then that is their fault, and not the fault of people who voted for Proposition 187. Those kids are innocent victims of their parents' mistakes, but we can't allow their parents' mistakes to go unchallenged, either.
MS: By saying that they will be kicked out of school and sent back to Mexico, you forget that if that becomes Unites States law, those kids won't go to school to begin with, because their parents will want to stay here in hiding. This is a very retroactive response to the immigration situation. The proactive thing we need to do is to double our border security, for a start.
The Republican view on this is the same view as they have towards crime. They are building more prisons and will solve society's problems of crime rather than putting more officers on the street and limiting the access to violent weapons.
JS: Taking away someone's incentive to break the law, I think, is a fairly pro-active program, and that is what Proposition 187 did. The Republican Immigration Reform Bill, which just passed both houses of Congress, included a provision for doubling the border patrol agents over a five-year period. Clinton vetoed that and said that he was vetoing it because it allowed states to deny benefits to illegal immigrants.
MS: You make it sound like we're saying: "Open the borders." At this point, I cannot speak for my party, because we have no platform on this right now. You have the luxury of having had your convention last week, whereas I have to wait for next week for mine.
JS: Well, also, you've got the luxury of attacking my convention.
MS: That's true.
JS: Whereas I can't attack yours.
MS: All I really can speak on is my personal views. While taking the incentives away may seem like a good solution, it is not going to stop people from coming to this country.
Proposition 187 didn't slow down immigration at all. What it has done is increase the number of people applying for citizenship, which is good. Eliminating illegal immigration is one thing, but hurting people is another. You can say till you're blue in the face, "Their parents should have thought about that before they brought that child here," but that child had no choice in the matter, and bringing him here was his parents' decision.
You don't see education as a right; you see it as a privilege, kind of like a driver's license, whereas ...
JS: I said that education was a right of citizens.
MS: Well ...
JS: Do you disagree?
MS: I do agree that it is a right of citizens, but I believe that it is a right. Our government has a responsibility to educate those who may not be citizens. How do you feel about education for legal immigrants?
JS: Legal immigrants, under the Republican Immigration Reform Bill are allowed to go to public schools. You see, where we have a distinction here is between people that obey the law and (illegal) immigrants. I'll allow you to recap your points, because I have a response.
MS: The Republican platform sounds good, but only on paper. If you want to look at it in a personal light, it's a tragedy that somebody could go without an education. If you want to look at it in a monetary light, this is a person who is going to be a drag on society, whether he is a citizen or not, if he is not educated. That means that this is somebody who is going to have to be supported by welfare, free medical care, and clinics all things that will cost our government money.
JS: You make a lot of assumptions about our platform. Just to start off, I don't think it's a fair characterization of Proposition 187 to say that it never worked. Proposition 187 has not ever been implemented. The courts blocked it, and ...
MS: Go ahead about the liberal courts!
JS: Well, a district court judge blocked it, even though a clear majority of voters, 61 percent, if I recall, voted for it, and that includes a majority of all the ethnic groups, including a majority of Hispanic voters which represent the biggest portion of illegal immigrants.
People come to this country, whether they are legal or illegal, because they want to make a better life for themselves. The goal here is to have legal people here in America. That should be the goal. When we "kick the kids out of school" what we're doing is sending them back to Mexico where they are citizens. There is nothing mean-spirited about it. The Republican Immigration Reform Bill included a provision to allow states to deny benefits to illegal immigrants, including children, because those children are illegal aliens, too. Not only that, the Republicans have what you term as a "pro-active" stance as well.
MS: A final note. I went to Neil Diamond's concert last night in the heart of Orange County where Republicans overwhelm us. When he sang the song, "Coming to America," everybody stood up and got a twinge in their heart and a tear in their eye even though they don't want people, most people coming to America. This is also the party that cheers, "Send the boat people away," when a Cuban jumps over a fence in an outfield during a playoff with an American baseball team. We have a lot to work on here, and I think we'll both agree that our current policies cannot stand.
JS: As far as illegal immigration goes, let me just recount one of my own experiences. I was at the Republican convention, and there was a special section set up for protesters. They called it the first-amendment section ...
MS: That little parking lot?
JS: It was fairly small, but it was never filled up. I went down there, and I was in the midst of this anti-187, pro-affirmative action rally. And this shows what is wrong with how we debate the issue. Bob Dole got up and said, "I am with you against mean-spirited Republicans," just after the head of the movement got up and pointed to the convention center and said, "That is nothing more than a meeting of the KKK," talking about the Republicans. The crowd cheered.
I think that leaders are monopolizing their constituents' loyalties, and they are misinterpreting the motives of the people that voted for 187 in saying that it is racist, even though the majority of Hispanic voters voted for 187. Under the Republican reform plan, we will still accept more immigrants than all the other nations of the world combined.
MS: The demagoguery works both ways, of course. Newt Gingrich said that the reason Susan Smith killed her kids was because of Democrats.
JS: As a Republican I say, "Don't look at what the Democrats say the Republicans want to do," look at what the Republicans' plans are, and look at what we have done, because the facts speak louder than words, demagoguery, and empty liberal accusations. The Republicans' record needs no defending. It speaks for itself, and if people would read that, Bob Dole really should be the next president.
PATRICK LAM/Daily Bruin
Michael Schneider, president of the Bruin DemocratsPATRICK LAM/Daily Bruin
Jason Steele, chairman of the Bruin Republicans